D&R mixer ..topic

[Yoski]

Hi Robert,

The PPM meters should indeed read -6dB when 1,23V/+4dBu is measured at the mains with a SINUS, so they're calibrated correctly.
When normal music/sound material is played, the meters will then show 6dB higer levels.

Succes.


Ik hoop dat het o.k. was om in het Engels te beantwoorden.

Thanks for the replay in English!

What I don't understand why D&R applies this kind of concept to their consoles, where you seem to have two different operating levels:
1) +4dBu (1,23V) input gain operating level.
2) +10dBu (2,45V) master output and channel output operating level.

Usually you have the same operating level throughout the whole console. I'm sure there must be a technical reason for it. I'm wondering if someone knows it? Could it be that the operating level in Dutch TV and Radio is +10dBu?

In my case the +10dBu was to hot for my AD-Converter. Luckily enough I could modify it by changing few resistors.

Of course you can always lower the master faders, but this - let's say - is suboptimal.

I hope you guys will tolerate a few posts in English. I'd really like to figure out what's with this two different operating levels.

 

[Jompo]

Thanks for the replay in English!

What I don't understand why D&R applies this kind of concept to their consoles, where you seem to have two different operating levels:
1) +4dBu (1,23V) gain input operating level.
2) +10dBu (2,45V) master output and channel output operating level.

Usually you have the same operating level throughout the whole console. I'm sure there must be a technical reason for it. I'm wondering if someone knows it? Could it be that the operating level in Dutch TV and Radio is +10dBu?

In my case the +10dBu was to hot for my AD-Converter. Luckily enough I could modify it by changing few resistors.

Of course you can always lower the master faders, but this - let's say - is suboptimal.

I hope you guys will tolerate a few posts in English. I'd really like to figure out what's with this two different operating levels.

You're welcome,

D&R has +4dBu operating level at the master outputs, NOT +10dBu (so, it's just one operating level).
What you most probably are doing wrong is setting the levels on the PPM meters at '0' when using the 1kHz sine from the oscillation section. Of course then the output will measure +10dBu, but that's because you are, in fact, driving the oscillation section +6dB too hot.

Like I explained before; a PPM meter reads 6dB lower values with sine tones than it does with normal music.
So, to measure the appropriate +4dBu/1,23V at the outlputs, your PPM meters should be reading '-6' and not '0' when using a sine tone or oscillator.
*(a +4dBu sine tone will read '-6' on tne PPM, while a +4dBu music/sound signal will read '0' on the PPM).

To calibrate/check the PPM meters:
1. Using 1kHz sine tone with masterfaders on the '0' position, measure the outputs and raise the osc. level until you measure 1,23V on your Voltmeter.
2. Now your PPM meters should be reading -6; if not, adjust accordingly!

This way the console is calibrated properly and when you now gainstage and mix at '0' on the meters (with music program), you'll be outputting at +4dBu levels at the mains (and 0dBu internally, if I remember correctly).
If your AD converter is +4dBu accepting, you now shouldn't need the resistor modification anymore.

I hope my explanation was clearer this time.

 

[R-ond]

welcome hehe

lotta intrested peeps in D&R stuff finally
was wondering ,.. is ift was / is stiill lotta abused ;] by lotta ..outthere ;]
old & newer ones ;]

Hi guys!


It is a great thread although I have to use google-translator


I don't speak Dutch and I hope you guys will accept this English post.


I'm am a beginner to the field of analog recording and I own the D&R Dayner console. I bought it for 150,- € from a small radio station. I recaped the master module and the PSU-Unit. It runs like champ. The only issue I have with it are the knobs. I need to replace some solo and mute knobs since they start to make pop-noises - which is understandable after all these years.


But there is something I don't quite understand about this console and I hope you can help me with that. But let me explain.
The manual says that the operating level of the Dayner is +4dBu (1,23V) which would usually mean that the master PPM indicates 0dB when a signal reaches 1,23V. With the Dayner it is the case in PFL mode only, which you use to adjust the gain level of a particular channel. In the normal mix mode (AFL) the PPM indicates -6dB at 1,23V. Which means that at 0dB PPM the signal is +10dBu and 2,45V hot!!! And it's true, I measured it.


As I mentioned above, usually you would expect that the PPM indicates the given operating level at 0dB. This is not the case with the Dayner. I'm not familiar this kind of concept. Could someone explain it to me? It would be great.



Thanks!


Robert.

 

[Yoski]

You're welcome

Thanks mate!

I think I might miss some fundamental technical concept here which makes it difficult to understand your explanation Lets figure it out what it is. As I said above I'm new to this stuff.


What is the exact unit of a given operating level in voltage, I mean is it just V or Vrms? If the second is the case, then it would make sense what you are saying. But still, if the PPM indicates 0dB-peak (music material) doesn't it mean, that I have a 2,45V on the output for a few ms?


The point is that other consoles indicate a +4dBu 1k sine wave at 0dB PPM not at -6dB PPM. That's why I'm confused.

 

[Jompo]

Thanks mate!

What is the exact unit of a given operating level in voltage, I mean is it just V or Vrms? If the second is the case, then it would make sense what you are saying. But still, if the PPM indicates 0dB-peak (music material) doesn't it mean, that I have a 2,45V on the output for a few ms?

I guess Vrms is the correct one, but I have measured with both a simple Voltmeter as with a true RMS meter and the readings were the same.

0dB-peak with music would of course be the nominal level; meaning that there most probably will be transient peaks exceding that level, but that's what the console's headroom is for (the max operating level of most D&R consoles is +26dBu). So, you always have a 22dB headroom (26-4=22) when operating at +4dBu.

The point is that other consoles indicate a +4dBu 1k sine wave at 0dB PPM not at -6dB PPM. That's why I'm confused.

If you have a console with U.K. reading ledbars, those indeed read 0dB PPM at +4dBu with 1kHz sine tone.

 

[R-ond]

Ze bezit echter wel enige gebruiksporen, maar ..................']]]
dit maakt niets uit voor een professioneel mengpaneel zoals de Mark III.


ow ok ']
still they go for a 100 eu .

?
http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/muziek-...9031229f6638c93974e145c5889d4&previousPage=lr

 

[R-ond]

system 900 [oud ok
met boxen ;]]
custum ,..

wel 100,....... + [hoop werk ;]
http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/muziek-...9031229f6638c93974e145c5889d4&previousPage=lr


nietvanmij

 

[Enzo.F]

Promotie in een Amerikaans vakblad tussen 1988 en 1990. Wellicht leuk voor de liefhebbers.

Zijn de non-owners nu ook overtuigd?

 

[Enzo.F]

Grappig dat de tweede, "a strong team" ook mede-betaald is door Synton, een ander Neerlandsch trots op electronica-gebied...

 

[Yoski]

I guess Vrms is the correct one

I was looking for an answer to this question on the Internet. In general the nominal level is define in Vrms and it applies more to VU-Meters. A PPM-Meter measures voltage peaks (Vm for Voltage maximum) so you have two different tools and two different perspectives. I guess it depends on what do you want to control. If you want to control the peaks then your nominal level is more like a threshold (V maximum) that you don't want to overstep. If want to control your loudness then a VU-Meter is better tool which will indicate for you the average voltage (Vrms).


I still have one question left. Why does a PPM-Meter indicate a +4dbu sinus wave 6dB below the nominal level? Is it because it can not handle the sine wave in a proper way?

 

[Enzo.F]

I still have one question left. Why does a PPM-Meter indicate a +4dbu sinus wave 6dB below the nominal level? Is it because it can not handle the sine wave in a proper way?

What physical output are you talking? Masters or a subgroup output? The subgroups need to take a stereo jack plug. Tip + sleeve have other nominal outputs than ring + sleeve.This is to feed the multi-track taperecorders available in the eighties.

 

[Zoltar_Basjer]

D&R4000 mkii hier, wel nog werk aan...
Oude foto

Bij deze reeks zou je de 2 types, 4 en 10 hebben afh van hoe je aansluit. Zou! Ik heb er nog niet achter gezocht maar staat zo n manual van die reeks. Dus goed opletten hoe/waarop je meet.

 

[Zoltar_Basjer]

@ yoski: 4000 series has both types of output available, dont know about the dayner series. Be sure to measure the correct things.

 

[Jompo]

I still have one question left. Why does a PPM-Meter indicate a +4dbu sinus wave 6dB below the nominal level? Is it because it can not handle the sine wave in a proper way?

A PPM peak meter has a quicker attack and release times of resp. 10msec and 1.5msec, while the aforementioned U.K. reading meters have 300msec attack & release times.
So, the PPM meter reacts more directly and faster to peaks and transients in music material.
I think that both types of meter react similarly to the sine waves; the difference is in their reaction to complex waves and music material.

My educated guess would be that because of that faster attack/release action, the PPM meter would have to be calibrated to a lower value to compensate for the transient overshoots that would otherwise cloud a more averaged reading?
But why 6dB lower, that I don't really know.

 

[voodoo]

Prachtig klinkende D&R4000 32 kanaals wordt bij ons wekelijks gebruikt.

(Heb ook nog een D&R4000Mk2 voor spare parts staan)

 

[Yoski]

But why 6dB lower, that I don't really know.

Almost as if they wanted to simulate the so called VU-lead for Tape machines, which is usually set around 6dB below the nominal level. I found the following note in the manual for D&R Orion:
'When aligning your tape machines to the peak meters on the console, do not set the peak meters to "0". The meters should be set to -6 on the console meters. If analog VU meters are used on the master section, they would be set to "0".'

It would make sense. But I'm not sure.

Speaking of devil, currently there is a listing for D&R Orion X on German ebay:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/D-R-Orion-X-...und-spitzen-Mic-Pres-Top-sauber-/272042331169

 

[Zoltar_Basjer]

@Voodoo: mooie tafel! Waarom niet de master van de mkii gebruiken? 4 xtra subgroups en ik zie dat je de indeling op de tafel zo gedaan hebt. Ik ga hem ook zo opstellen. 24Kanalen - master - 8 subgroups. En geen patchpanel? Niet handig ofzo? Ik zou patchbay aansluitn maar de bekabeling alleen al zal veel tijd kosten....

En veel spare parts? ;-)

 

[Enzo.F]

Almost as if they wanted to simulate the so called VU-lead for Tape machines, which is usually set around 6dB below the nominal level. I found the following note in the manual for D&R Orion:
'When aligning your tape machines to the peak meters on the console, do not set the peak meters to "0". The meters should be set to -6 on the console meters. If analog VU meters are used on the master section, they would be set to "0".'

So the "console meter" is the meter above each channel?

 

[Yoski]

So the "console meter" is the meter above each channel?

Yes, but it applies also to PPM-Meter in the master section, since you can connect the master outputs to a 2-track master tape machine.

 

[Jompo]

Almost as if they wanted to simulate the so called VU-lead for Tape machines, which is usually set around 6dB below the nominal level. I found the following note in the manual for D&R Orion:
'When aligning your tape machines to the peak meters on the console, do not set the peak meters to "0". The meters should be set to -6 on the console meters.

However this does not apply to just D&R; the standalone PPM meters from Dateq and RTW are also calibrated like that.