Zondag - Moog Voyager dag - Doepfer dag - MH
- Thread starter JohnnyBusca
- Start date
die komen er aan, ik heb vandaag (te)veel tijd besteed aan interne verbouwing vd studio en ben amper toegekomen aan iets anders... en morgen weer werken (kut)
don't worrry: die van mij staat continue aan en is zeker niet bedoeld als museumstuk. De andere kopers die ik ken zijn ook aktieve muzikanten dus ze zullen zeker niet verpieteren. trouwens: iedereen moet vooral lekker zelf weten wat hij of zij d'r mee doet
Wat opmerkingen van Rob Hordijk over de Voyager:
Had some chance to try out the new Moog Voyager for a while, which led to
some notions. The first and imho most natural question is: Is this just a
vastly overpriced nice peace of furniture or what is it then, that would
justify that stiff price for this analog monosynth? Is it just an expensive
gimmick so some well doing artists can use it in their videoclips? Or what?
So some thorough investigation had to follow...
One thing is clear, it is not just a machine, instead it is definitely built
to be a musical instrument and sounds like a highend musical instrument. The
blue lighted play controllers are quite nice and the keyboard feels very
good. Knobs are wonderful as well, nicely spaced etc. Didn't have the time
to thoroughly check out the XY controller, will do that some later. One
thing is clear: Bob Moog is not just an engineer, he is a musical instrument
builder trying to conserve a centuries old tradition of instrument building.
The Voyager has the good feel of a good instrument.
Anyway, there are some interesting changes from the original Minimoog. For
one the filter is a completely different type of filter. This was a big
surprise to me as one would expect that famed old Moog ladder filter.
Changing of waveforms is done by a single modulatable knob, which is imho
not such a success. When changing from a PWM sound to a sawtooth the
modulation is still on and probably in many cases needs to be killed
directly by the modulation depth knob. The envelopes are now the common adsr
types, which is not such a bad thing. And some more 'tiny' and obvious
things are different, like midi.
All this indicates that there have been made some deliberate choices to
indeed make a new and different machine. Well, 30+ years should lead to some
new insights, so changes are not such a big deal. Much more interesting is
to try to follow Bob's thinking to why the changes were made the way they
are. Me thinks Bob designed the sound of the Voyager very much to his own
taste, which time has proven isn't such a bad taste.
My guess is that the waveform switches are just a matter of space, the
waveform switch and the PWM controls now merge into one single knob saving
some space for the XY controller.
The filter is another thing, it is clearly a combination of two 12 dB
filters in series, a switch can change one filter from LP to HP. The filters
can be detuned by a 'Spacing' knob. The idea of using two 12 dB filters is
not new, it is quite common to do that and detune them a bit to smear out
the resonance peaks a bit to give the filter a bit more bite instead of the
high resonance whistling effect common to 24 dB filters. This works quite
well for the LP position of the LP/HP switch. For the HP position it doesn't
do so much, as the resonance on the HP seems not to work in this position.
Funny thing is that if the filter is fully open the sound is a bit muffled,
my guess is that the waveforms are softened by limiting their bandwidth to
maybe around 10 kHz or even less. This in any case makes the HP position
still usable. Funny thing is that Bob didn't do some more 'elaborate' things
to the filter, there is a lot what one can do with two 12 dB SVF filters
either in parallel or in series. Eg if in parallel and one of the filters is
phase reversed the filter curves can become much more pronounced. The two
most musically interesting combinations being LP minus LP or LP minus HP.
So, the first is when the LP response is mixed with the phase inverted LP
response from the second filter. And on the other combination the first LP
is mixed with the phase inverted HP response from the second filter. In fact
it doesn't really matter which filter is inverted in phase, as long as one
is. By controlling the amount of the second LP or HP in combination with the
spacing the filter curve can be shaped to give different effects. Eg the
LP-LP combination can be changed into a bandpass response by mixing equal
amounts, the width of the band is set by the spacing control and with high
resonance there are two resonant peaks which can give a talkative mouthharp
effect. With the LP-HP the filter is an allpass peakfilter when the cutoffs
are equal and when the spacing control puts an offset to the cutoffs the
combination changes into a two peak phaser-like filter. Apparently Bob must
have thought that that would make control so much more complicated that he
decided not to choose for these options. But when the filter LP/HP switch is
in the HP position it doesn't make a lot of sense now either.
About the patch:
Well, I tried some stuff on the NM and here is some result. It is not at all
an emulation of the Voyager, I just had to try if something can be done to
the filter, if a slight change to the combinations could improve matters a
bit. So here is a two 12 dB filter combination with a cutoff and a spacing
control like on the Voyager, but there is one switch and one knob more. If
the switch is in serial mode then the filter is a 24 dB filter with two
adjustable sets of poles through the spacing control. Of the filter is set
to parallel mode the second filter can be set to LP or HP response by
another switch. So, just one more knob and a switch. He could have found
some room for that, I guess. Anyway, this is simply my taste, I like a bit
of talkative effects in monophonic synthsounds.
There is also some more tricks to make the sound a bit more 'vintage', one
of my favourites is selfmodulation by FM. In this case the FM level must be
scaled to the grey value to keep the modulation index constant, and so
safeguard no changes in waveform over the frequency range. Additionally
adding a bit of noise to this FM signal can give the sound some 'oldness'.
Checking also with an old Minimoog the sound from the patch is somewhere an
old Moog and the new one, the corniness of the old one with the warm soft
filtering of the new one. In serial mode the filter comes quite close to the
Voyager filter, but in parallel mode it is much more pronounced and
versatile. So sorry Bob, I think you could have done some more with the
filters.
Anyway, apart from being a very nice piece of furniture the Voyager is a
beautiful instrument, the sound is a bit limited compared to what all the
stuff around these days can produce soundwise, but it is a nice musical
sound. This points out that also the NM is still in a league of its own. I
really would have liked the Voyager with the NM soundengine inside. I guess
I stick to playing my NM with the old Esq1 instead of a new keyboard... ;-))
Have fun,
Rob Hordijk
----
Had some chance to try out the new Moog Voyager for a while, which led to
some notions. The first and imho most natural question is: Is this just a
vastly overpriced nice peace of furniture or what is it then, that would
justify that stiff price for this analog monosynth? Is it just an expensive
gimmick so some well doing artists can use it in their videoclips? Or what?
So some thorough investigation had to follow...
One thing is clear, it is not just a machine, instead it is definitely built
to be a musical instrument and sounds like a highend musical instrument. The
blue lighted play controllers are quite nice and the keyboard feels very
good. Knobs are wonderful as well, nicely spaced etc. Didn't have the time
to thoroughly check out the XY controller, will do that some later. One
thing is clear: Bob Moog is not just an engineer, he is a musical instrument
builder trying to conserve a centuries old tradition of instrument building.
The Voyager has the good feel of a good instrument.
Anyway, there are some interesting changes from the original Minimoog. For
one the filter is a completely different type of filter. This was a big
surprise to me as one would expect that famed old Moog ladder filter.
Changing of waveforms is done by a single modulatable knob, which is imho
not such a success. When changing from a PWM sound to a sawtooth the
modulation is still on and probably in many cases needs to be killed
directly by the modulation depth knob. The envelopes are now the common adsr
types, which is not such a bad thing. And some more 'tiny' and obvious
things are different, like midi.
All this indicates that there have been made some deliberate choices to
indeed make a new and different machine. Well, 30+ years should lead to some
new insights, so changes are not such a big deal. Much more interesting is
to try to follow Bob's thinking to why the changes were made the way they
are. Me thinks Bob designed the sound of the Voyager very much to his own
taste, which time has proven isn't such a bad taste.
My guess is that the waveform switches are just a matter of space, the
waveform switch and the PWM controls now merge into one single knob saving
some space for the XY controller.
The filter is another thing, it is clearly a combination of two 12 dB
filters in series, a switch can change one filter from LP to HP. The filters
can be detuned by a 'Spacing' knob. The idea of using two 12 dB filters is
not new, it is quite common to do that and detune them a bit to smear out
the resonance peaks a bit to give the filter a bit more bite instead of the
high resonance whistling effect common to 24 dB filters. This works quite
well for the LP position of the LP/HP switch. For the HP position it doesn't
do so much, as the resonance on the HP seems not to work in this position.
Funny thing is that if the filter is fully open the sound is a bit muffled,
my guess is that the waveforms are softened by limiting their bandwidth to
maybe around 10 kHz or even less. This in any case makes the HP position
still usable. Funny thing is that Bob didn't do some more 'elaborate' things
to the filter, there is a lot what one can do with two 12 dB SVF filters
either in parallel or in series. Eg if in parallel and one of the filters is
phase reversed the filter curves can become much more pronounced. The two
most musically interesting combinations being LP minus LP or LP minus HP.
So, the first is when the LP response is mixed with the phase inverted LP
response from the second filter. And on the other combination the first LP
is mixed with the phase inverted HP response from the second filter. In fact
it doesn't really matter which filter is inverted in phase, as long as one
is. By controlling the amount of the second LP or HP in combination with the
spacing the filter curve can be shaped to give different effects. Eg the
LP-LP combination can be changed into a bandpass response by mixing equal
amounts, the width of the band is set by the spacing control and with high
resonance there are two resonant peaks which can give a talkative mouthharp
effect. With the LP-HP the filter is an allpass peakfilter when the cutoffs
are equal and when the spacing control puts an offset to the cutoffs the
combination changes into a two peak phaser-like filter. Apparently Bob must
have thought that that would make control so much more complicated that he
decided not to choose for these options. But when the filter LP/HP switch is
in the HP position it doesn't make a lot of sense now either.
About the patch:
Well, I tried some stuff on the NM and here is some result. It is not at all
an emulation of the Voyager, I just had to try if something can be done to
the filter, if a slight change to the combinations could improve matters a
bit. So here is a two 12 dB filter combination with a cutoff and a spacing
control like on the Voyager, but there is one switch and one knob more. If
the switch is in serial mode then the filter is a 24 dB filter with two
adjustable sets of poles through the spacing control. Of the filter is set
to parallel mode the second filter can be set to LP or HP response by
another switch. So, just one more knob and a switch. He could have found
some room for that, I guess. Anyway, this is simply my taste, I like a bit
of talkative effects in monophonic synthsounds.
There is also some more tricks to make the sound a bit more 'vintage', one
of my favourites is selfmodulation by FM. In this case the FM level must be
scaled to the grey value to keep the modulation index constant, and so
safeguard no changes in waveform over the frequency range. Additionally
adding a bit of noise to this FM signal can give the sound some 'oldness'.
Checking also with an old Minimoog the sound from the patch is somewhere an
old Moog and the new one, the corniness of the old one with the warm soft
filtering of the new one. In serial mode the filter comes quite close to the
Voyager filter, but in parallel mode it is much more pronounced and
versatile. So sorry Bob, I think you could have done some more with the
filters.
Anyway, apart from being a very nice piece of furniture the Voyager is a
beautiful instrument, the sound is a bit limited compared to what all the
stuff around these days can produce soundwise, but it is a nice musical
sound. This points out that also the NM is still in a league of its own. I
really would have liked the Voyager with the NM soundengine inside. I guess
I stick to playing my NM with the old Esq1 instead of a new keyboard... ;-))
Have fun,
Rob Hordijk
----
niet om het een of ander maar het HP filter is gewoonweg niet resonant 'by design'. (helaas, helaas!) Geen wonder dus dat je geen resonantie bespeurt...
12 dB filters? ik dacht het niet hoor, maar zal het effe checken. het klinkt mij in ieder geval ook niet zo in de oren maar die worden natuurlijk ook al een dagje ouder
mmm... de manual zwijgt hierover. d'r staat ook een verhaal in over filters in het algemeen en daar wordt volop over dB's & slopes vertled maar niet als de Voyager VCF specifiek wordt behandeld.
ja, mits ze in serie staan en dat is niet zo AFAIK; in de LowPass / LowPass configuratie wordt iedere filter output naar 1 kanaal vd stereo VCA gestuurd. Maar ik vermoed dat er "achter de schermen" geswitcht wordt van 4-pole naar 2-pole als je naar LowPass / HighPass overschakelt. Die configuratie is nl. wel "in serie" dwz 2 x 12 dB = 24 dB.
Overigens : In het orginele ontwerp zat 1 "switchable" 4 of 2-pole VCF.
sander
_
Rob Hordijk, hee ik was een tijdje geleden bij hem thuis om z'n SH-101 te kopen.
Aardige kerel, hij gaf me ook gelijk effe een demonstratie video editing/VJ gebeuren.
Aardige kerel, hij gaf me ook gelijk effe een demonstratie video editing/VJ gebeuren.